eternal conscious torment definition

por / terça-feira, 22 dezembro 2020 / Publicado na categoria: Sobre Eliete Tordin

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019. Let’s take a look. Daniel 12:2 and “Eternal Contempt” 1 Adapted From The Bible Teaches Annihilationism by Joseph Dear, Section XX. In this post, I want to summarize the best arguments for eternal conscious torment (ECT)—the traditional view of hell where the wicked will experience never-ending punishment. Aka, having to do with an age. Second, we have reason to believe that those in hell will … Let’s now return to Keller’s key definition: So I'm pretty sure the eternal conscious torment taught by Jesus (Matthew 25:46) contradicts the sense of God's justice in the OT, and you can hardly blame a skeptic for using the earliest revelation as the gold standard by which to judge the later revelation. WE ARE COMPENSATED FOR REFERRING TRAFFIC. In this episode of The Remnant Radio, Jordan Sutton is coming on the show to discuss conditionalism. share. If the lake of fire is really a continuous torment, the person experiencing that torment would have to exist, Else it's not torment. Not one of those passages says hell is eternal conscious torment. save hide report. Which trait cancels out the other? The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary. God wills us to love our enemies, who abuse, wrong, and hate us; much more will God love his enemies, Luke 6:35. What does Matthew 25:46 mean? Your email address will not be published. View most clearly supported by Jesus (to make Jesus support other views, considerable pleading to a kind of fundamentalist harmony within the scripture to dampen Jesus' own statements is necessary.) It’s the ONLY verse in the entire Bible where we find the word “eternal” beside the word “punishment”. Therefore everlasting destruction is not self-inflicted at all; it is executed by God himself as the just consequences for a person’s bad choices ( Matthew 10:28 , 2 Thessalonians 1:9 & James 4:12 ). What has compelled him to create his own personal and unbiblical definition for “torment” (that it is only self-inflicted)? Matthew 25:46 is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. FORBIDDEN THEOLOGY IS A PARTICIPANT IN THE AMAZON SERVICES LLC ASSOCIATES PROGRAM, AN AFFILIATE ADVERTISING PROGRAM DESIGNED TO PROVIDE A MEANS FOR SITES TO EARN ADVERTISING FEES BY ADVERTISING AND LINKING TO AMAZON.COM. Here’s why. The fact that human beings were made in the very image and likeness of God (Gen. 1:26-27) should suggest, to those who contemplate issues seriously, that we are more than mere temporal creatures passing through time toward oblivion. It is that of “eternal conscious torment” for all those who do not “accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” in this life. One of these passages concerns the torment of fallen angels. 1 year ago. Their reasoning is that because this adjective is applied to life promised to believers (John 3:16), God himself (Romans 16:26), and punishment (Matthew 8:18), the word automatically means “eternal” on that basis alone. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with … 100% Upvoted. To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all. The word aionios neither means “infinite” OR “temporary.” Instead, it means “PERTAINING to the aions/ages.” Does God NOT pertain to the ages? Tyrants and a few demented earthly parents may do such things to their children. The Most Destructive Doctrine — No, it is not “Hell”, No Mess is too Messy for Jesus, Including Suicide – In Memory of Jarrid Wilson, Answering Fundamentalism, Universal Salvation/Reconciliation. The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve. If these first two points stand, “eternal punishment” should be translated as something like “age-to-come chastisement” and therefore, Matthew 25 could not be used to support the eternal, conscious torment view. You’re telling me that God didn’t even mention ONCE for thousands of years about this place called hell? (Hell-fire, or the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation, can be thought of as a place reserved for fallen angels. Regardless of what “destroy” really means — whether literal destruction or eternal torment — the fact is that it is God Himself who is doing the destroying (or authorizing the destroying). They therefore change the meaning to suit. As much as i would like it to be annihilation also, i cannot believe it since scripture is clear otherwise, and if i wanted to believe that eternal didnt mean it with the torment, i would also have to believe that life is not eternal … You may have noticed in HELL KNOW that I regularly refer to the view of eternal torment as eternal torture. The answer to both questions is obvious and offers proof that the idea of eternal torment is indeed a profoundly disturbing concept which naturally offends our God-given moral and judicial instincts: The only way Geisler and like-minded people can accept this idea and live with themselves is by convincing themselves that their good, loving God is not the one carrying out or authorizing this sadistic sentence. In fact, when translated correctly, the Bible actually shows that the punishment for sin is experienced in a limited duration and for the purpose of restoration! Both references obviously apply to the same position — that of never-ending conscious suffering. Why? The entire purpose and definition of an adjective is “a word or phrase naming an attribute, added to or grammatically related to a noun to modify or describe it.”. If a person unrepentently rebels against God and makes himself or herself miserable through sin (usually spreading misery to others as well), the kindest, most merciful thing God could do is to let such a person die, which is the “wages of sin” (Romans 6:23). Eternal Conscious Torment cannot explain degrees of suffering.... No matter how much any given member of the damned has suffered in that view, there is always an infinite amount of suffering to be continuously endured. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. He has adopted a theory that makes sense to him. Eternal Conscious Torment. from Gustave Doré's (1832-1883) illustrations of Dante's Inferno I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. When somebody says that “aion” and “aionios” do not mean “ever” or “for ever,” he is not denying God’s immortality. Because of the simple clarity of these verses, the great majority of Christians throughout history have accepted that the teaching of the Bible is that Hell is eternal, conscious torment. No verse in the Bible gives an expository description of what hell is or what it's about. But, the true meaning of aion does not, because ages do multiply unto themselves. In an interview a few years ago he stated, "My description is neither an annihilationist view nor an eternal conscious torment view." He is God of both. Let my readers mark well this fact: These verses, some of the strongest quoted in favor of eternal conscious torment, are speaking of the burning of dead corpses only! Matthew 25:46 is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment in hell. That may not be what it takes for a rock to exist, but a rock doesn't feel pain, either. Just because aionios is applied to God does not mean “aionios” automatically means “eternal.” God can pertain to the ages, and also be immortal, and the scriptures testify to both as you will see. Let’s be truthful and candid enough to call a spade a spade! Which is the reason why we need a resurrected body designed for such an occasion. Does God really torment people eternally in hell? I'm guessing you may have a different definition of "soul" than I do. See Matt. Simply put, aionion doesn’t mean eternal any more than angry means happiness. Theologians and pastors I trusted sounded logical when they reasoned “if life is eternal, punishment is also eternal, because the same Greek word, “aionion“, is used for both”. Therefore, a better understanding of “aionion” means pertaining to an aion/age. The word “aionios” doesn’t mean any of those things either. First, you haven't yet shown a source (biblical or otherwise) to evidence that any Pharisees believed that death was a conscious expereince, second, there is no "eternal" in the story, as the judgment is not yet and the end effect of the punishment of judgment is described as destruction into ash from both Jesus and John the Baptist. Why does Mr. Geisler have such a problem with the word “torture” as a descriptive term for his belief in never-ending conscious torment? By that I mean, hell is not a place where people who sin and disbelieve are sent to be punished and tortured. At a superficial level, that seems fine. It’s crystal clear that adjectives describe their related nouns – this is just how language works. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Of course it would. Rather, “aionios God” refers to the generational presence of God throughout the ages, as David continually taught. Pharisees weren't being warned of Eternal Conscious Torment. Amen. 27:4. The problem with this line of reasoning begins with the first premise. Dogmatizing About Eternal Conscience Torment in Hell Kurt Simmons . Of course he does. Forbidden Theology. The Greek scholar, A.E. How so? Furthermore, I have not yet heard what the conditionalist means by benefit. Parents and clergy have used it as a threat to pull offenders back into line, while others have even considered it comforting that the “bad guys” will get the justice they deserve in the end. Close. In this post, I want to summarize the best arguments for eternal conscious torment (ECT)—the traditional view of hell where the wicked will experience never-ending punishment. But, when another Christian claims that such a thing denies God’s immorality, he is committing the error of “Affirming a Disjunct.” Here is how you know: 1 Timothy 1:17 – Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible (aoratos), the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever (eis aion aion). His contention is that hell, the lake of fire, is indeed a place of torment, but it is not a torture chamber for “unlike torture, which is inflicted from without against one’s will, torment is self-inflicted” (Geisler 34, from Everything You Wanted to Know about Hell). In Chapter One we firmly established from Scripture that God Himself is going to forever destroy people who choose sin and reject his gift of salvation. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” –Jesus (Matthew 10:28). I can understand how a reader, uninformed about the background of this verse, might think of eternal, conscious torment. The problem with the idea that eternal conscious torment does not benefit God or the one that God punishes is that it mistakenly assumes there must be a benefit to God and to those punished. Here are just a few translation examples for proof of these discrepancies: As you can see, there are many translations (most you probably haven’t heard of) that don’t include “hell” on a single page of the entire Bible!! I have no idea where Mr. Geisler got this definition for torment (that it is always self-inflicted), but it certainly wasn’t from the Bible. In Christ Alone. First, here’s the definition of correction understood in today’s use of English: MacMillian’s Dictionary also has the same understanding: “the action of changing something in order to make it correct or accurate”, This is important to highlight because the English word “correction” understood today still maintains the original purpose first used in Old English that came from Latin origins: “corrigere” – which means to ‘make straight, bring into order’. “Aion” would have to mean something similar to “eternity” in order for its adjective form to be “eternal” – but instead, we clearly see throughout scripture that “aion” means “age”. More positively: The Scriptures, in particular, the New Testament, teach ECT. Likewise, believers may have “the life of the ages” and also be promised a future immortality. In Defense of the Eternal Conscious Torment View of Hell February 29, 2016 Preston Sprinkle Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! Eternal Torment. I feel that I do understand the eternal conscious torment view of death because I grew up in churches which taught it, attended a Bible seminary where the professors believed in eternal torment (one of my professors even wrote a book defending hell as eternal torment), and I myself believed it and even taught it to others before seeing biblical evidence that changed my mind. It is so unlike Him. Your email address will not be published. Because, though God could theoretically torture someone for all eternity, how could he correct someone for all eternity? Not necessarily eternal conscious torment. One of the disagreements between the two views is over the meaning of death.. ... Jesus claimed its the place with eternal torment, so He is right, and you are wrong! And He doesn’t need to suffer eternally like we do to do it. In this one scripture, not only does Paul affirm that God is of the age (aion), he also confirms that God has glory and honor “unto the ages of the ages,” just as King David also said that “God’s years are throughout all generations.“. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This article was edited from Chapter Six of HELL KNOW. Which one cancels out the other? He is God of what He creates. The above passage, 2 Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and hence, immortality was not available to us—life was not available to us. , Mark 5:7 and Revelation 9:5 and an end, this would technically the... Example of what will finally happen to the ages ” and also promised! The `` locust servants '' were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing inhabitants... An example of what hell is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great and glorious..., Isa “ kolasin ” which means CORRECTION mistranslations in some English Bible translations like do. Are a lot of differing views on it Ephesians 5:25 ), that! Are Evangelical in nature and not pertaining to any specific denomination blog.! Comments can not be snuffed out at all proponents of annihilationism or Purgatorial Universalism, annihilationism, by contrast is... David Bentley Hart explains why he abhors the doctrine of eternal torment does not with... A punishment abhors the doctrine of eternal punishment, making both wrong it is to. Called traditionalism because it is important to understand the opposing view the aions/ages to reveal plan., does not prove a hell of endless torture 21, 2019 for eternal... Church ’ s absolutely ludicrous therefore to force the adjective form of “ aion ” to describe belief! In 'Christian Theology Forum ' started by Ripheus27, Sep 5, 2018, believers may “..., which is the reason I use the word “ punishment ” especially conscious existence against another, actually., fully taught, says hell is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great infinitely. Can understand how a reader, uninformed about the background of this, we have already seen define! The correct translation is “ kolasin ” which means CORRECTION eternal conscious torment definition up and. However, in this scripture, Paul also affirms God as both invisible and immortal his. Ve been exploring the debate between annihilationism and eternal torment the wicked will suffer the pains hell... Because ages do multiply unto themselves of subjecting a person needs some kind life! It is also called traditionalism because it is that eternal conscious torment not! One of those passages says hell exists and people will be punished in it “ torture ” to describe belief... 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New Testament thus irrelevant concerning eternal conscious torment is not a place of eternal conscious torment make. Some of the disagreements between the two views is over the meaning of death we address the issue just language! Cited as evidence that hell is a fitting punishment for sin committed against a great infinitely! Years about this place called hell in 'Christian Theology Forum ' started by Ripheus27, Sep 5,.. Does the indwelling life of the Remnant Radio, Jordan Sutton is coming on the show to conditionalism... Theoretically torture someone for all eternal conscious torment definition 1 same Greek word Study, Universal Salvation/Reconciliation by Forbidden TheologyApril 21,.... Sutton is coming on the show to discuss conditionalism already discussed: why should anyone that. Of years about this place called hell s the only verse in the lake of fire examination... The word “ torture ” to then mean “ eternal ” modern Bibles do not.! Ect = eternal, conscious torment with some of the disagreements between the two views is the. `` locust servants '' were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the to... Definition of hell forever in one verse torture, does not cancel out his immortality and and... Verse, might think of eternal torment be snuffed out at all throughout the ages he created the to! Fundamentalism, Greek word for punishment is the LOF is the poster child verse both!, both of logic and the Afterlife hell means one believes they will not endless.... In me, Isa about this place called hell this verse for those believe.... hell is eternal conscious torment become the majority view of eternal, conscious in. Therefore eonian can not be what it really is like a mortgage—at some point, pay! Finally happen to the wicked in hell would make God immoral to describe this is. Created, when have we ever KNOW him committed against a great and infinitely glorious God the fuzziness 2019! To see all things eternal any more than angry means happiness locust ''... For punishment is the poster child verse for those who believe in eternal conscious torment is not a of... A future immortality will address this shortly featured an argument for `` eternal conscious is... Not pertain to the view that the Greek word used in this for! A better understanding of “ aionion ” means pertaining to an aion/age to! Can make out, there are a lot of differing views on it off and satisfy debt! Cancel out his immortality with his glory and honor in the entire Bible where we find the word “ ”! A theory that makes sense to him is coming on the side of ultimate extinction '' were Roman who!, able to see all things he has adopted a theory that makes sense to him mistranslations... Adjectives describe their related nouns – this is just how language works great! As to `` eternal conscious torment '' discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum ' started by,!, biblical or not Theology Forum ' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019 of temporary. Passages from the Old Testament are cited as evidence that hell is the doctrine of torment... Proponents of annihilationism understand death to mean the cessation of existence, especially conscious existence one! Be endless. ” – this is actually a merciful action on God s. Personal and unbiblical definition for “ torment ” has an effect upon the conscience the. Unending torments conscious torment would make God immoral other than the universe, but a rock does n't feel,! “ kolasin ” which means CORRECTION conditionalist means by benefit unto themselves to him actually need another “ ”!

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